PTW

I had the fortune of bumping in to the Club run yesterday and it was really good to catch up with you all.
I think this is worth discussing: I refer to the incident with the blue peugot 306 who beeped his horn and passed very close to the bunch as we exited Eglwys Brewis lanes near st Athan.
In cases like this, tempers are fraying, Thankfully no one was hurt, a little startled maybe, but we dont do ourselves (as cyclists) any favours when we catch the car, persuade the owner - complete with wife and kids in the rear seat to lower his window and proceed to have one hell of verbal exchange (putting things politely) over the drivers right or wrong doings. This lead to the driver getting even more Pi**ed off and as he drove off nearly hit Pip, and this was even closer than the first one. So now we have 2 near misses instead of one.
In my experience, and I refer to an incident last year when Rhys, James and a few others met with a similar fate when an Owens lorry veared in to us up over st marys hill. I managed to get some details, contacted Owens directly and also gave a statement to the Police. What followed was an investigation by the Police, 4 drivers were interviewed and an apology from Owens - as I did not get the number plate this is as far as it got, but the message got through and I'm sure the 4 drivers didn't take too kindly being interviewed by the Police and internal HR.
So i guess what I'm trying to say is that in situations as these we must exercise self discipline and get as much info on the car as possible - which is sometimes difficult in the heat of the moment and report it. If we had the number plate of the car yesterday, the Police will follow this up - Just think of it, driving with intent to endanger life is a pretty serious offence!

We're pretty good as a bunch, we instinctively call 'Car up' and single out, or 'Pots' and pointing to the road area, So as these incidents become more frequent, we should try and become methodical and report the incidents to the Police, carry a pen or after an incident, type the car reg in to your mobile phone.

- failing that, enrol in a martial arts school of road side fighting for men in clogs and prepare for the worst.

Oh, one last thing, 2 abreast is 2 abreast, not 3 or 4! just think of it as TTT practice - follow that wheel!

I totally agree. It doesn't help the situation or the reputation of the club when members go chasing after vehicles etc as has happened on a few club runs I've been on.

As a foreigner here in Wales, I've always liked the fact that the Wheelers employ, well, a rather more traditional approach to conflict resolution. What a breath of fresh air. I've had enough of all the other approaches.

Resorting to legal avenues after incidents does not change attitudes before them. Do we really want the compensation? Or think we have achieved something if someone gets 3 points on their license and a slap on their wrist? So what? If that's a victory, then it's a pretty worthless one, because to my mind the only thing winning is this belief that you shouldn't say boo to anyone.

I'm all for showing respect to other road-users. Anyone who has seen me ride will know I do that. But if they don't show it back then you can't just sit there taking number plates. Saying boo to people is a natural process. It is normal, it is healthy, it is constructive. It was what people all over the world do.

It is worth bearing in mind what Sunday's incident will have done for the reputation of the club. The Wheelers will have a reputation for being feisty. I'm all for that.

I do have to agree with Andy on this. We dont do ourselves any favours by rushing up to vehicles and hurling abuse at drivers. I was aware what the driver had done because he came very close to me when he passed us first time. Every time I have witnessed one of our boys having a word with drivers in this way, it has always ended with the driver passing us even closer second time around. I know that's not right but it could actually lead to an accident worse than the initial one.
Self discipline is good.

Strange how the "gentleman" concerned stopped when the horse riders approached. Ranting at the driver does not help i admit, except perhaps ,to relieve stress!,

Bill, putting it politely, I strongly disagree with your viewpoint.
What we're trying to achieve here is a mindset change and create a safer environment for all road users. Nobody is after compensation or has that been suggested in the previous correspondance. Getting the police involved in my view would go along way in altering the mindset of the motorist at fault.
You get the law knocking on your door with regard to a certain incident, you will do one of 2 things, either think twice about passing cyclists in the manner that promoted the said visit from the police or mow the cyclist down next time you see them. I'm hoping here its the first one.
I cant see how your "traditional" approach would be supported by the club or understand or heard of the "reputation" that you think the club has for being feisty - feisty during races yes! and as far as what the incident did for the reputation of the club - it did nothing but tarnish it and sent out the message that PTWCC support the mob menatlity.
There is a big difference between constructive dialogue and verbal abuse. If you think and support the latter and truely believe its going to eradicate a situation for the better, i'm affraid history and personal experiences mentioned in this forum will prove your viewpoint to be miss-leading.
To instigate change, you have to start somewhere.

The behaviour of riders Chasing after cars,and hurling abuse at drivers has been going on too long in this club of ours.

I'm afraid I have no faith in any system of govt, the law, police, or anything else to protect our interests. We live in a democracy, which means that the country is not run by the govt, contrary to popular belief, but by the population, since they elect the govt. Whatever the population want, the population get. One of the results of that is that we now live in a society where it is accepted that the overwhelming majority are in daily possession of a lethal weapon. A car.

By any stretch of the imagination cyclists have already lost, and I say that as a non-car-owner. I live in a world where I have lost, and where anyone who wants to kill me, can do so, at any time. We also live in a world where the consequences of doing so are increasingly trivial, year on year. Convictions for Dangerous Driving simply cannot be procured, not even by the CTC with the best injury lawyers in the business. A conviction for Careless Driving isn't even custodial.

Given that backdrop, I have a pragmatic point of view. Whether I live or die, I have made my choices, and they are the only ones open to me. There is nothing I can do to mitigate the risk that some day some wilfully malicious idiot will kill me. They will do so because they are reckless, and live in a consequence-free environment where, so long as you use a car, you can do what you like, safe in the knowledge that other cars, walls, trees, etc will just bounce off your reinforced-steel safety cage. Well done manufacturers, by making the cars safer you've just made everything worse.

I'm afraid I'm just not willing to delude myself or anyone else that 'something can be done', or that 'things could be improved', or that 'attitudes could be changed'. There are 38 million cars on UK roads for only, what, 40 million adults? I've seen how a significant portion of them drive, racing through our village and actually trying to pull power slides on black ice. I've seen what a significant portion of them write every time a cycling related story appears in the newspapers. No matter what the story was actually about, it is soon over-run with comments about red-lights, pavements, road tax, insurance, tests. One even wrote cyclists should be denied NHS treatment when they are knocked off, because they have deliberately placed themselves in harm's way.

I think I know my place in the grand scheme of things, and it's right at the bottom. The lowest form of life in the traffic evolutionary tree. It suits me fine. That's how I like to think of myself, and I like being hated for being a cyclist. The more society in general hates me, the better I feel. The more it assures me I'm doing the right thing in being one. Now, everybody reading this forum is welcome to choose their own stance on this subject, be it optimistic or pessimistic. I certainly don't feel like telling anyone what to think.

But as for the question of what's best for the reputation of the club - and for cyclists in general - I think it's all a bit late for that. Our fate was determined before I was born. Sad but true.

A few holier than thou attitudes on here. It seems to me the words " I didn't see him" or " the sun was in my eyes" trips easily from the tongues of motorists and is readily beleived by the authorities, as has been proved in the past. I think both policies could be adopted here, i.e. remonstrate with the drivers and then report them to the law. I also think that in our life times we will never know the answer to this problem, so I say, as in the words of Mungo Jerry, " just do what you feel". It's the same all over, the whole is ruined by the minority and I honestly beleive some of these mindless idiot drivers should be shagged with the ragmans trumpet, but hey, as some of you seem to want, we could try turning the other cheek and you know what'll happen then, yep,you got it, they'll slap the other f"$&*ng one as well!. Any way I'll stick to me old ways, it's surprising how many apologies you get, when you catch the driver in question and he realises you're not a little kid out for a sunday bowl. I'd love to see some of you lot out on a football pitch, getting kicked all over the park and not retaliating. Don't forget folks, Police figures say, that there's 5 million uninsured vehicles out there, worrying Hey!

I'm sure read some where that Winston Churchill once said" ahhh! they've already blitzed France, Poland and the rest of europe, why bother!" Not!

WHAT?!!!!!!

A couple more Churchill specials that I feel are particularly valid here..
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty...

To improve is to change;

All jokes aside, if you want to take it up with motorist - do it when your on your own, as engaging in the alfa male acts of chest bashing at the road side just puts the rest of the bunch at risk!

Please correct me, if I'm wrong, but I don't recall ever reading about Mr Churchill appealing to Adolf's good nature or Him fighting off the Hun with paperwork, perhaps you're thinking along the lines of some thing that was said at the battle of hastings," oye! watch what you're doing with that bow and arrow, you'll put someones eye out, oops to late". This all started with the bunch being at RISK.

just respect andy's view and be done with it.
Because we all know hes right.

Yeah but you can't say that when riding out with the club that everyone obeys the rules 100% of the time. We pull out in front of cars, we run the odd amber/red light. I've even seen members holding onto the back of vehicles at 20-30 mph WTF!

Some car drivers are absolute t****rs, but others I think genuinely make mistakes etc. Nobody is perfect right?

They don't always get away with it...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8483446.stm

Tony wrote

Some car drivers are absolute t****rs...

Tony, there's no need for asterisks in the word 'tosser' - it's actually mentioned in the club's constitution.

There's little wonder "she didn't see him", If ever there was a case for a motorist to be given benefit of the doubt, it must be this one. Most of us are dressed up like christmas trees, but, black kit?.Distinctive colours of the Army!, you can hardly make him out against the background. It's not a case of the Alpha male chest beating, it's a case of, I have never and will never tolerate bullies, and if someone takes liberties with my life, then I damn well feel I'm elegible to retaliate in a simular manner.

OT (sorry Andy) but after reading that piece about the Army guy I've got massive sympathy with his family for their loss but I do also have some sympathy for that young girl. I must add that this is without knowing the full facts and especially if she'd passed several other time-triallists or just one 'Cycle Event' sign in which case my sympathy for her will vanish. Time-trialling on the A1? Madness! But, hey, each to their own.

there is a thread about that incident on time trialling forum which may clarify that more:

"Druid's Sister here.

Just to add some information as I see lots of quesstions are being asked.

Katie Hart was not speeding, using her phone, under the influence of alcohol or drugs, her car was roadworthy.

The Law states:
(Dangerous Driving) ... if the standard of driving falls far below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver and could cause injury to persons or property.

A person is also to be regarded as driving dangerously if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in this manner could cause injury to persons or property.


It seems that she was simply utterly oblivious to her surroundings. She says she did not see Claire Lee on her bike and that she did not realise she had passed her at all, let alone so closely. She said that she did not see Gareth at all, yet the road was relatively clear of traffic, the weather and daylight were good, the road was straight going into a slight right-hand incline. There was no other vehicle between her and my brother. The car behind her could see my brother's bike. She continued to drive in a straight line, gaining on my brother but not taking any evasive action ie swerving, braking or overtaking. She says she did not see him yet he was riding in the centre of the inside lane, exactly where the Highway Code suggests a rider should ride as it makes one more visible. She drove straight into his rear wheel.

This information is all factual evidence given in court over the past few days.

The jury had a tough task - they had to sift through a lot of 'padding' and irrelevant material. They did a great job.

Thanks to Claire for her crucial witness statement."

Hey Shirley, im suprised at your comments, your such a quiet ,reserved, laid back kind of guy normally! lol.
Just remembered the guy in the blue vectra pulling out on you during the end2end and then slowing down to challenge you after u screamed at him, didnt hang round too long when he saw size of you mate did he. me and your brother were no help mind, cracked up laughing at side of road!
On a serious note, i can see both sides of the argument (ive had a guy in a bmw stop and chase me down road with baseball bat!) it can be extremely hard to do/say nothing when someones nearly killed you! but then hindsights a wonderful thing. safety in numbers i say.

My general apologies to the forum for my sick, bitter and twisted post. It reads a lot worse than I meant it to. Looking on the bright side, even though I am sick, bitter and twisted, at least I'm still here, and still riding

Mind you, I wrote all of that before I opened this month's copy of Cycling Plus, which headlined with 'Upping the Anti', a story about the surprising level of online cyclist hatred. It seems like good timing.

I'm now going to go and hide again

Bit worried about you Bill, are you sure you're ok after your trip on the ice.
Enjoyed reading the comments - think after reading Bill's I'm going to hit the mountain trails. Although will probably come across some motorcyclist or car thieves. Better stay at home and use the turbo. Oops sound a bit like Bill, but not as eloquent! Lets do what we feel we have to do and get on with it.