PTW

Look at RULE 14 of the club rules

So the club runs are under the control of the captains. I assume includes route selection. What are their criteria for selecting the route?

fff! common sense!

GOOD TO SEE LES AND CURTIS HAVE A POSITIVE ATTITUDE. IT COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE. PIP WHAT DOES FFF MEAN. IS IT WHAT MAMS AND DADS DO.

who is the club captain at sat 9.30?

Ok - rather than drawing out the answer I'll spell it out. The club captains ALREADY have the responsibility people are so worried of giving them. They have CONTROL of the club run. i.e. THEY decide the route and what I am suggesting is that something they should factor into this decision is the safety of the members if they don't already. I agree with pip that this is common sense but it is the rules of the club. If people think club captains shouldn't have this responsibility it is a matter for the AGM.

Dvlloyd - the answer is which ever captain or vice captain out at the time I think.

This issue is getting out of hand , there is not allways a club captain or even a vice captain,out on all rides, be it a training ride, or a club run, or any ride for that matter,all riders should take the initiative and make a decision based on facts at the start of their rides,or do,nt ride at all and take up tiddlwinks!

I know I'm new to the club and I don't want to step on any toes but here's my opinion....

On the singletrack mind 'sunday rides', the ride organiser has a route in mind, he will alter this basic route depending on weather and the ability of the people who turn up.

At any point in the ride individuals can say "I'm not riding down there!" if they don't like the look of the section. They can get off and walk it. They can say "I've had enough, I have to go back", and we all go back together.

I have fallen of many times on 'club runs', I don't blame the ride organiser, it is my decision to go out in the snow, to attempt the tricky bit, I am responsible for my actions.

It sems to me that whomever is the ride organiser on the day (and I believe there should be a nominated official for club insurance purposes otehrwise it's just a bunch of mates riding around), they has some responsibility for the route and keeping people together, but do not have sole responsibility for each and every action of each and every person on the ride.

I agree with that entirely.

It has to be individual members responsibility whether to go on a particular route or directional way eg. Yesterday ( sunday) I looked out of my window and saw that my drive and street was a sheet of ice where the previous nights rain had frozen over. So I made the decision not to risk going out. But I understand 4 or 5 club riders managed to go out and the main roads were fine. I stayed in and played Tiddlywinks

Ok I will try to make this my last post on the subject. I just want ot make my view clear:

In summary I believe that the routes we choose to go on should be decided by the club captain on the day. They should not be dictated by habit, routine but rather by a series of criteria similar to those set out by andrewjoseph (i.e safety, rider fitness, conditions etc). The captian is responsible for and should have the final say on the matter and should be entitled to change the route as the ride progresses. As I understand it the captain already has this power and responsibility. In light of the recent accident (not to mention the more historic problems) this responsibility shoudl be taken more seriously - i.e the Saturday ride should not be on a set route but rather the captian should decide.

I do not wish to obfuscate personal responsibility whilst on the ride. Once the ride starts if someone crashes that is their problem. Nor can the captain be held responsible for unforseen circumstances. Further, if the conditions necessitate riding single file this must be done, and again perhaps the captian should take the lead in asking that riders do so.

It seems to me that some members don't like the idea of the captain having this responsibility despite the fact that the rules already bestow it. However, we are a club who ORGANISE rides and unless we have someone who takes these responsibilities seriously then we are just ' a load of mates riding around'.

Davey, having to look in the NEW ENGLISH DICTIONARY , for obfuscate, i am now bewildered and confused. The club captain , or vice captain s are not always out on rides , as previously mentioned,so who decides in that situation, where and how far to go ?. This issue is dragging on and on ,we all take responsibility for our own actions, and no form of"risk assessement" can cater for all situations,so let common sense prevail, . On a lighter note who is riding the NEW YEARS DAY 10 ? MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL

pip wrote

Davey, having to look in the NEW ENGLISH DICTIONARY , for obfuscate, i am now bewildered and confused. The club captain , or vice captain s are not always out on rides , as previously mentioned,so who decides in that situation, where and how far to go ?. This issue is dragging on and on ,we all take responsibility for our own actions, and no form of"risk assessement" can cater for all situations,so let common sense prevail, . On a lighter note who is riding the NEW YEARS DAY 10 ? MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL

You're right no form of risk assessment can cater for all situations, but it can assess the risk far better than no risk assessment. (People shouldn't latch on to this phrase - it was meant as shorthand). Do you agree with the principles I've set out in my last post though?

As for captainless rides, well there's nothing you can really do there. Just as you say, hope common sense prevails.

As Captain Mainwaring once famously said, "Fine words butter no parsnips".

Anyway, how are our two injured boys doing?

Guessed this would drag on a bit!
I think there appears to be an end to this debate now.
Summary- If club captain/vice capt are present at any ride they take responsibility for that days route.
They could also see fit to alter ride en-route if required or ask us to ride in single file if appropriate.
If no captains available on any ride we can discuss it amongst ourselves and come to a "group" agreement.
During ride we are resposible for our own safety.
Everyone happy?

Merry christmas & a happy "SAFE" new year to you all

I haven't been on a Club ride with the Club Captain since I started living in Swansea, four years ago, so I can't say at any point who has chosen our routes. As regards avoiding litigation, there is a lot of safety in being just a bunch of mates riding around. Long may it continue. We are lucky that the insurance company of the driver that hit Rod didn't chase our insurance company in an effort to limit its losses, and in order to do so it would probably have had to prosecute our Club Captain under H&S legislation. That's the danger when you have a defined path for responsibility.

I would be more interested to know if our rules and constitution could be rewritten along the lines of Plane Stupid or Reclaim The Streets, organisations which go to great lengths to ensure they are effectively 'leaderless' in the eyes of the law. That way there's absolutely no-one to prosecute.

fixie6 wrote

Guessed this would drag on a bit!
I think there appears to be an end to this debate now.
Summary- If club captain/vice capt are present at any ride they take responsibility for that days route.
They could also see fit to alter ride en-route if required or ask us to ride in single file if appropriate.
If no captains available on any ride we can discuss it amongst ourselves and come to a "group" agreement.
During ride we are resposible for our own safety.
Everyone happy?

Merry christmas & a happy "SAFE" new year to you all

I'm happy