PTW

Shocked and saddened to hear about the accident. I only read the forum come Monday morning, so the last to know. I do a lot of riding around in heavy traffic, and am a bit of a campaigner for junction improvements and what have you. But there's little that can be done about low-sun to mitigate the risk, except of course to change route. My motto is: if there's low-sun up front, there'll soon be a shunt. Catchy.

That said, on the whole I give great credit to drivers, by and large, for noticing what's happening through the big square window. They're not so good with the triangle windows, but things that happen right in front of them they do tend to notice. However, it only takes one in 10,000 not to notice and you have trouble. Glad it's not a lot more serious, truth be told.

Hope you all make a full recovery, and look forward to seeing you back on your bikes.

I agree with Davey C. We should risk asses before leaving the Plaza. If theres low sun then go the opposite way. we dont have to stick to traditional routes all the time. Safety first from now on

Nice typo. And some of us have got more of an ass than others to risk! I could be in that club too come the end of Christmas.

As ever things are never quite as cut and dried as they seem.

The reality of Saturday morning is that we adopted the normal route rather than head over the bwlch as a result of a "Risk assessment". James mentioned that it was 1 degree in cwmafon and it was 4 degrees at the plaza, this being the case we all agreed that this was likely to mean ice on the Bwlch. This was likely to be the greatest risk so we adopted our normal route.

We considered Maesteg as a route but It was agreed that this route was worse as the road from Bridgend is busier and even worse for low sun.

The problem is therefore that our intention was solely to head in an easterly direction and we were going to go at 9:30 ish.

I don't think route selection is the issue or the time of the ride as wherever we go, at some stage in the morning any route we take will into the low sun at this time of year. We even had the problem at 12.Oclock the day riding towards Porthcawl. This being the case maybe we should consider how we ride.

Whilst riding into low sun should we have a club rule to ride in single file?
Do you think this would this give drivers more opportunity to miss us or do you think that drivers will fail to see us at all?

What are your thoughts guys for what its worth at the moment I'm not convinced either way but it is a fact that noone on the inside line got hit by the car on saturday.

Whilst Curtis and I are licking our wounds, we can both bounce back (mmmmm not so sure about the choice of words but you know what I mean) The important thing is that we learn from this.

Everybody please comment with ideas etc and lets see if we can find something safer than what we do now

Les you forget that James is a big ponce and was just looking for an excuse not to go up the Bwlch.

Although I use that as an example, a ride up towards Glyneath, Onllywyn etc would have saved us from much of the low lying sun, and the roads there are shady. The majority of the roads are gritted well these days and James, Rhys and I traversed the Bwlch and Rhigos yesterday in similar temperatures with no problems. I have been up there in far worse conditions. I believe the risk of ice is greatly exaggerated to the extent that we put ourselves in far worse danger. (Don't forget Rhys and and I got clipped by that lorry a couple of weeks ago at St Marys). The Rhigos, Bwlch, Neath VAlley etc are a lot more quiet on Saturday mornings than the Pen Coed St Mary's route without a doubt.

It is my view that route selection plays a big part in risk.

Dave Totally agree that route selection does form a big part of the risk and Glyneath/Onllwyn is a good option however, at some stage in the day we are going to be riding into the low sunlight.

Week last Sunday Spot, Curtis, JD and myself were riding and experienced the same problem at 12 oclock heading towards Porthcawl. So potentially changing the route will not eliminate the risk for some.

So in addition to route selection, how we ride is equally important

I agree with davey c, i did numerous rides that way last winter and the roads/traffic etc are much quieter.
However, i also think that due to the changeable weather conditions that we experience a decision could be made by a club official at the plaza on the given day.
Les, with regards to riding single file (or not), its a tricky one, are we going to be more visible riding two abreast? or is it just a case of the low sun always adding to a potential accident?
We can never erradicate accidents, but we can/should try our best to avoid them.

Les Thomas wrote

Dave Totally agree that route selection does form a big part of the risk and Glyneath/Onllwyn is a good option however, at some stage in the day we are going to be riding into the low sunlight.

Week last Sunday Spot, Curtis, JD and myself were riding and experienced the same problem at 12 oclock heading towards Porthcawl. So potentially changing the route will not eliminate the risk for some.

So in addition to route selection, how we ride is equally important

Couldn't agree more save there are clearly some routes that cut out and almost ELIMINATE the risk of low lying sun. With a bit of thought we can work out which ones they are. Regardign the riding I believe Andy Evans was making a similar point recently and I think I am now inclined to agree.

I agree with the single file into the sun,
mainly because as my bike shows, and where my bruises are indicate that the car did see us and tryed to avoid us at the last minite.
dan only came off (he was in the insde) because of the direction the car it me in.
I beleive that if we were in single file, this accident wouldnt of happened.
living in porthcawl makes riding into the sun a situation that is always goin to occur. So if it were me, id inforce the club rule that in low lying sun, we should all ride in single file. ( i know its unsociable , but you know it needs to be done)

let this be a warning, we all know that it wont be such a good situation next time , where the only injury was a broken bone.

curtis

All this talk of risk assessment is frightening guys.

The problem with low lying sun ??? If the ride had been literally ten minutes later ( or earlier ) then the sun would have risen and it wouldn't have been a problem !!!

It wasn't the low lying sun that caused the accident ... it was poor driving !!!

Yes we need to think about routes, we need to ALWAYS think about safety whether its Winter, Summer, Morning, noon or night, but let's keep it in perspective otherwise we'll end up having to employ ( very expensive ) risk / elf n safety experts .... or stop riding !!

Well said Anthony. I mean, where was the driver's risk assessment? If he had one (hah!) it might have stated "at all times the driver must drive at a speed appropriate to how far the driver can see."

BTW I bumped into Tony March's sister this morning and she passes on her regards to everyone with the club and was very sorry to hear about this incident.

This is awful news. Les and Curtis, glad to hear that you are reasonably ok, sympathise with the leg Les, you will come back even more hungry for success.

Would like to wish you both a speedy recovery and take this opportunity to wish you all at Port Talbot Wheelers a Merry Christmas and Peaceful New Year.

Best Wishes,
The Rowes

Anthony Vallario wrote

All this talk of risk assessment is frightening guys.

The problem with low lying sun ??? If the ride had been literally ten minutes later ( or earlier ) then the sun would have risen and it wouldn't have been a problem !!!

It wasn't the low lying sun that caused the accident ... it was poor driving !!!

Yes we need to think about routes, we need to ALWAYS think about safety whether its Winter, Summer, Morning, noon or night, but let's keep it in perspective otherwise we'll end up having to employ ( very expensive ) risk / elf n safety experts .... or stop riding !!

I believe (hope! can't be bothered to check!) I wrote 'informal' risk assessment (that's what I meant anyway).

I agree that I don't want red tape etc to hinder a ride BUT as a club we have a DUTY to our members and to keep them safe. The people RESPONSIBLE for discharging this duty are the captains and vice captains. It's not just a title that we chuck someone's way at the AGM every year, it does carry responsibilities and rights. The people in this role need to take this on board now, and all I am asking is that a the begining of the ride think to themselves - are there going to be any problems with the proposed route this morning? To call it a risk assessment may be over indulgence but in a technical sense that is what it is.

I agree completely that the driver was at fault. However, as stated before it's no point being in the right if you are lying in a hospital bed. I bet Les isn't feeling smug because he was cycling within the rules. He's too busy being gutted because he's got a broken leg. Further debating the 10 minutes later or earlier is moot - the 9.30 ride left at 9.30 - what's to speculate on?

We have to expect the worst and hope for the best with drivers, because the consequences of just one of the hundreds of drivers passing us getting it wrong are tragic.

As for the single file 'rule' - nice idea but the trouble with rules are that they are hard to enforce. Far better to alter the route to cut out as many hazards as possible first, thereby reducing the chances of encountering low lying sun.

Alfie wrote

Well said Anthony. I mean, where was the driver's risk assessment? If he had one (hah!) it might have stated "at all times the driver must drive at a speed appropriate to how far the driver can see."
BTW I bumped into Tony March's sister this morning and she passes on her regards to everyone with the club and was very sorry to hear about this incident.

No one is questioning this. However he is not the one with the broken leg.

Davey C wrote

Anthony Vallario wrote

All this talk of risk assessment is frightening guys.

The problem with low lying sun ??? If the ride had been literally ten minutes later ( or earlier ) then the sun would have risen and it wouldn't have been a problem !!!
It wasn't the low lying sun that caused the accident ... it was poor driving !!!

Yes we need to think about routes, we need to ALWAYS think about safety whether its Winter, Summer, Morning, noon or night, but let's keep it in perspective otherwise we'll end up having to employ ( very expensive ) risk / elf n safety experts .... or stop riding !!

I believe (hope! can't be bothered to check!) I wrote 'informal' risk assessment (that's what I meant anyway).

I agree that I don't want red tape etc to hinder a ride BUT as a club we have a DUTY to our members and to keep them safe. The people RESPONSIBLE for discharging this duty are the captains and vice captains. It's not just a title that we chuck someone's way at the AGM every year, it does carry responsibilities and rights. The people in this role need to take this on board now, and all I am asking is that a the begining of the ride think to themselves - are there going to be any problems with the proposed route this morning? To call it a risk assessment may be over indulgence but in a technical sense that is what it is.

I agree completely that the driver was at fault. However, as stated before it's no point being in the right if you are lying in a hospital bed. I bet Les isn't feeling smug because he was cycling within the rules. He's too busy being gutted because he's got a broken leg. Further debating the 10 minutes later or earlier is moot - the 9.30 ride left at 9.30 - what's to speculate on?

We have to expect the worst and hope for the best with drivers, because the consequences of just one of the hundreds of drivers passing us getting it wrong are tragic.

As for the single file 'rule' - nice idea but the trouble with rules are that they are hard to enforce. Far better to alter the route to cut out as many hazards as possible first, thereby reducing the chances of encountering low lying sun.

Two things there Davey, Firstly, risk assessment is all well and good but the risk changes literally by the minute - whether it be low lying sun or icy patches or traffic congestions . How many times have we had incidents where nothing happened but were millemetres away from tragedy ?
Also
Are you suggesting that a captain or vice captain should be out on every ride ? Would the captain then be responsible if there was an incident ? Have a guess how many captains / vice captains would be happy with that responsibility. What happens or who takes responsibility if they aren't out ?

I was down the club Friday evening and John Willy was commenting how he was riding cycle paths at this time of year has car drivers have only one thing on their minds ie xmas. John may have meant other reasons but he would have to coment further. But its ironic how the day after he said that two of our boys were injured.

Just like to say that healthy debate is a good thing but can quickly turn nasty if things get misinterpreted.
I honestly dont think davey wants to hold any club official responsible for (god forbid) any future accident.
I simply believe that as a group of responsible adults, we could all agree on the day if an alternative route is called for.
And as anthony rightly stated, weather conditions change quickly, but surely we just need to be more aware of this ,as and when it occurs and adapt our riding accordingly.
As cyclists we are always "at risk" we just have to manage that risk and look after each other.

Thanks fixie - You get the drift.

Chips - you are creating problems not solutions! Try again please!

Davey C wrote

Thanks fixie - You get the drift.

Chips - you are creating problems not solutions! Try again please!

I agree with what you suggest aswell mate. You have made some valid and sensible suggestions. would make good discussion down the club in the new year .

no-legs wrote

[quote=Davey C]
Thanks fixie - You get the drift.

Chips - you are creating problems not solutions! Try again please!

Not creating problems Davey, just waiting for someone else to point out what Fixie eventually stated in his last paragraphs

Hmmm, just occurred to me, no postings from Kevin R about this thread ....

where you hiding Kev ?

Les

How did your visit to the fracture clinic go ?

Well the news is I've got some nice HI Viz plaster on that is going to be with me for 4 weeks.. But they have supplied a kind of sandal as they say the leg will be able to bear weight in 2 - 3 weeks.

My thoughts are if it can bear weight it can handle a turbo so I'm hopeful that maybe by boxing day ish i might be able to do something.


Hoping that she who must be obeyed will drive me the cafe tomorrow

Sorry to hear about the news guys. Hope everything is ok with you all. It could have been much worse - I was out that fateful day when Rod was killed. Once we get into issues of heath and safety and putting responsibilities onto the club captain I think we are heading for trouble. I wish you all a speedy recovery .
Les - got some nice rugby autobiographies if you wish to extend your reading list. Try a few novels as well.

Well now I'm utterly confused. If we don't seek to give the captain and vice captains responsibilities then what exactly is their function? Please, someone explain this to me.